changing sides and crosses (front or rear)

newfire's picture
Submitted by newfire on Wed, 2007-01-03 07:12.
I am a little uncomfortable with changing sides behind my dog without having my dog read the change of side as a change of direction. If we use rear crosses without expecting the dog to change direction (even slightly) how will the dog be able to differentiate between a cross where we want a change of direction and one without such a change of direction. It seems like we will be setting up a situation where the dog will have to 'think' about what as is expected rather than responding to a clear cue. I am not trying to be argumentative. I realise that the description of the cross Olga wanted was very subtle (running to the center of the next jump), but dosent the use of this type of cross lead to a requirement for us to have to make a far 'broader' side change to get an actual change of direction?? ...............elizabeth
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agilityaddict's picture

Re: changing sides and crosses (front or rear)

Submitted by agilityaddict on Fri, 2007-01-05 08:55.

Hi Elizabeth,

I'm not sure what Olga will say but I would only do a rear cross if I wanted a change in leads.  In this case you are asking the dog to do a lead change and basically you determine how sharp a turn is created by the rear cross by your direction of travel.  As Olga says if you are not moving laterally very much and you do not decelerate, you would expect the dog to change leads but not move off their line too much.  I would never cross on a totally straight line with no lead change needed.

Wendy

Re: changing sides and crosses (front or rear)

Submitted by kthacher on Sat, 2007-01-06 07:07.
I had the same issue as Elizabeth--my dogs read my rear cross as a change in direction and turned to the right. Then I remembered Olga said to start out very close to the left standard of the first jump. I'm guessing this is to make our rear cross less "lateral" and more in line. However, my dogs couldn't figure out what I was doing so close to the jumps and wouldn't take the second jump with me so close since I never run with them that way normally. This made me realize I need to train for this, using my arm signals differently or something to show them that I want them to work close. I knew my "airplane" arms were going to get me in trouble some day!! (Or maybe the answer is for me to be able to send them ahead farther so I'm not right beside them at the second jump.)
newfire's picture

Re: changing sides and crosses (front or rear)

Submitted by newfire on Sat, 2007-01-06 07:54.
I think that our proximity to the jump puts more pressure on the dogs line than my guys are used to. so perhaps that is the answer.  Our dogs need to stay committed to the obstacle we are suporting regardless of how tight we come.  Then when we KNOW they are committed we can do our cross signalling the change of lead or direction.  I will have to try to get Chris to video really tight or right on the line of travel or something to see what Pip actually does when I put that pressure on! .......elizabeth

Re: changing sides and crosses (front or rear)

Submitted by elsiem on Sat, 2007-01-06 11:19.
I have used rear crosses for years with all my dogs successfully. If you do your foundation on the ground this is without the jumps and practice crossing behind, the dog should have no trouble understanding your body language.   Have your dog sitting slightly in front of you 2-4 ft. and slightly to your side about 2 or 3 feet.   You then turn your body in the direction you want to go. When the dogs head turns in the correct direction,release your dog and click and reward with food or toy.  If the dog continues to look in the wrong direction, just keep moving in your direction, pretty soon the dog has to turn the correct way.  I have used this to teach all my dogs rear crosses.  After success on the ground add a jump and do the same.      Hope this helps.    Elsie
newfire's picture

Re: changing sides and crosses (front or rear)

Submitted by newfire on Sun, 2007-01-07 10:20.
Hi Elsie.  The problem is not that the dogs don't read the rear crosses, they do quite well.  I think the issue is more one of pressure.   We are putting pressure on the dogs line by running parallel and tight.  With mini's in particular (and I am sure BC's as well) that kind of pressure will cause the dog to squirt away alittle.  In the first sequence in particular, you have to have committment to that final jump / tunnel before rear crossing to get the tunnel or else the dog will read your rear cross correctly and come off the tunnel.  I was initially concerned that a rear cross between 2 and 3 was actually a cross behind with no turn involved.  You only get the turn if you cross after the dog gets 'tunnel' committment...... confusing to explain I know!........ elizabeth
Olga Chaiko's picture

Re: changing sides and crosses (front or rear)

Submitted by Olga Chaiko on Wed, 2007-01-10 00:13.
OK, hold on guys..

Let's just step aside for a second and look at this situation regardless of what your particular dog may or may not read when you do a rear cross..

A cross, rear or front, signals a change of direction.. But to what extent? Well it can be a turn anywhere from 0 (zero) to 180 degrees, right? When the turn is 0 (zero) degrees, we call it a "side change". What does it mean to the dog? To the dog it means that he should proceed on the same line but note that the handler has switched sides and thus the default lead leg has now changed.

In plain English, if your dog is on your right and ahead of you, he will eventually turn left; conversely, if your dog is on your left and ahead of you, he will eventually start tracking to the right.

So, when you change sides by doing a cross, front or rear, the dog changes his lead leg and maintains the same direction as before the cross.

If you taught the dog that a cross equals a turn (change of direction), that's a problem, because now your dog feels "pressured" if a rear cross is just a side change. That's a training problem, as well as a conceptual problem.

In the sequence that gave you such a headache, the rear crosses were not a 0(zero) degree turns/side changes. There are slight angles and turns indicated by these rear crosses to support the line to the tunnel.

Just think about this for a minute. It may be time to reevaluate your concept of crosses, step outside the box and widen yours and your dogs perspective...

Olga.
newfire's picture

Re: changing sides and crosses (front or rear)

Submitted by newfire on Tue, 2007-01-16 19:29.
I think we finally did realize that the rear crosses were not 0 degree turns in the excercise.  However why would we change sides?  I suppose I do not understand why as a handler I might need to change sides producing a 0 degree turn?  I am happy to step outside the box and widen my perspective but I want to understand the purpose behind it and where the skill may prove usefull.  Then I can make an informed decision about whether a maneover adds to my tool box or complicates existing functioning tools! ... I am trying not to be a slavish adherant to anything but trying to keep clear communication with my team mate! .....elizabeth
Olga Chaiko's picture

Re: changing sides and crosses (front or rear)

Submitted by Olga Chaiko on Tue, 2007-01-16 22:34.
You are correct, the rear crosses in the exercise were not just side changes. I was hoping to introduce one of the ways of how to create a dynamic line through a sequence. Nevermind..

You may not need to ever change sides without a change of direction. I do it times a plenty. Why? Most obvious reason would be that I need to be on the other side for the next sequence... A lot of times to create dynamic and excitement for the dog.

There is no controversy in this. Just leave it for the time being, we'll get back to it later.

Olga.