Startline Routine
We are having an interesting discussion in the Online Coaching Forum about dogs being pushy on the startline and handlers being in a rush..
newfire asked the following question and I decided to take a liberty and post this topic and my answer here. Read on.. and jump in with your comments.
Submitted by newfire on Fri, 2008-01-18 06:17.
I do find myself rushing and I really don't know why.
Do you have any start line routine you do for yourself that helps you stay settled?? - elizabeth
Re: Startline Routine
Elizabeth,I do and I don't, ;-).. I am not a big stickler when it comes to dog subordination. I prefer mutual effort applied in the same direction. I like my dogs to be aware that they are about to run (whether at a show or at practice), so they prepare themselves and offer attention. From the moment I ask the dog to work with me, my attention is on him and him only. We may play tug, if the environment allows, or just chill by the start gate. I don't mind my dogs getting excited, but I do not specifically rev them up.
Once it's our turn to run, we go to the start line and I have the dog sit (my personal preference) and I go on my merry way to my leadout position. Like I said, I am not very strict as to how the dog sits, I love him even if he looks like a vultures, ;-).. or if he moves a bit.. he is not a robot after all. I feel my dog's eyes on me even if I have to navigate through a maze of obstacles and can't maintain constant eye contact..
Once I am in position and ready to start I call the dog with no big to do..
Sounds easy, ah?
Well, it is.. because I don't have to fight my dogs for attention.. or compete either with the environment or with the alluring obstacles.. That I train from day one and it's our "Ninja way", lol.. So I am not nervous or rushed.
And I do not agonize about the impending run and forget about my dog. I do keep track of what's going on in the ring so I am not delayed for my start.. I hate to be yelled at, ;-)..
If my dog is very excited, I take that into account. I try to be expedient with my leadout and will accommodate my dog by asking him to start as soon as I can. I will hold my dog on the relay exchange and I will start inline, so he doesn't have to feel unnecessarily taxed by the start line wait..
I don't fight with my dogs.. we are on the same side, we are teammates.. Now that's a relaxing image, ;-)..
Oh, yes! .. almost forgot, I have a pre-release word: "Ready?". I say it and then issue the appropriate command to engage the course.. However, I don't use "Ready?" with Luz.. Though the whole "Ready?" business is rhetorical, asking Luz if he is ready would sound real dumb, since Luz was born ready..
OK, OK.. jokes aside, from the moment my dog acquires a sit at the start, his attention is on me, on the "Ready?" cue the dog cross references my position with his own, locks onto the line of obstacles in front of him and we run..
I am very relaxed at the start, it's a non event. But I enjoy the intense connection between me and my dogs at the start of the run. When I train my dogs, I spend more time on honing this connection and enhancing mutual attention then on whatever it is I may be working on at the moment..
Olga.
Re: Startline Routine
Re: Startline Routine
Elizabeth,
You are on the right track with your above statement. When training or running a dog, monitor the progress at hand instead of thinking along the lines of "if only I can get my dog to "***********" (insert your pet peeve there), I will be able to do "***********" (whatever it is that you are trying to accomplish).
So, if the dog doesn't seem to be on the same page with you at the start, why bother about the exercise you were planning to do? Correcting the dog for any form of inattention, including pushiness, is only going to widen the rift.. Forget the exercise and spend time on teamwork at the startline..
If the dog seems to be simply overwhelmed with a certain type of a startline situation, like starting with a tunnel, make a concession for the dog - offer a short or no leadout in exchange for team play..
Olga.
Re: Startline Routine
Re: Startline Routine
Elizabeth,
There shouldn't be any "favorite" obstacles. Same as there shouldn't be any favorite toy or favorite food.. There should be a FAVORITE GAME, a game your dog plays with you. This game may include weavepoles, or tennis ball, or steak treats, or "*************" (insert your dog's desire here), but there shouldn't be any display of obsessive preference.. unless you like to be dealt the short end of the stick all the time, ;-(..
Team play hinges on mutual respect. If your dog has to bend backwards to play with you, it's not fare to the dog. Conversely, if you have to bend backwards to entice the dog to play with you, it's a $50 hamburger.. Evaluate what's fare for both you and the dog and stay within those parameters.
Now, to answer your particular dilemma about Wisp being addicted to the weavepoles. Dogs acquire "favorite" obstacles by having that particular obstacle as a focus of their skill training for a prolonged period of time (such obstacles most commonly would be weaves and contacts, as they require zillions of repetitions to train a solid skill), or really easy obstacles, such as tunnels, that require little or no training and just give the dog a natural pleasure of doing them. Normally, as the training focus shifts from a particular obstacle to the next, the dog's preference fades too.. However, if you use the "favorite" obstacle as a reward, and your dog operates on the reward basis, which I also discourage, you are creating a notion in the dog's mind that whatever it is you are asking from the dog is just a mean to get the reward, so the dog (just like us) will try to get done with your request and get to the reward. It's like having a job you don't like and biding your time at the office trying to do as less as possible and only when the boss is around.. all the time thinking about getting off work and going to an Agility trial, ;-)..
>>>to be continued<<<
Re: Startline Routine
Re: Startline Routine
Well, depends on your point of view.. and what concessions you are willing to make, ;-)..
Remember, the topic of this discussion is/was the dog being pushy at the start line and making her handler feel rushed. The subsequent question was about the dog who can't wait to do weavepoles and would self indulge herself performing weave poles if let to do it.
So, such a dog does perceive the startline wait as an annoyance and an unnecessary delay, totally disregarding the handler's role as her team mate. So, when she is made to stay at the start, such a dog is just "biding her time at a boring job" with her mind elsewhere.. even if this elsewhere happens to be the correct obstacle.
And though this is not a Border Collie antics discussion, since the dog in question happens to be a young Border Collie, I have a few words of caution for the Border Collie handlers, especially those who have recently migrated from a "less motivated and/or less biddable" breed. A lot of people find Border Collies' obsessions cute and adorable and their willingness to work till they drop a great relief. It may be perceived as a welcome change that the dog is obsessed with the weave poles as opposed to the gopher holes.. But really there is no difference.. the lights are on but nobody's home, ;-(.
So it all comes down to the degree of concessions people are willing to settle for. If a handler doesn't mind the dog playing with obstacles instead of playing with him on obstacles, it's fine by me. However, please keep in mind that it is going to handicap that team's progress at some point.
You are dead right about it being nearly impossible to reverse an obsession in a Border Collie. So, don't let any obsessive behaviors, no matter how cute, take residence. Border Collies are quite capable of acting normally and are much happier this way in the long run.
About the dog's desire to please the handler.. I have a point of view that is not very popular in this regard. I don't believe dogs exist to please people. Actually, if a dog's behavior resembles desire to please, i.e.: show inferiority, subservience, or any action where the dog has to sacrifice his interests in my favor just to "please" me, I go to great lengths to rid the dog of such notions. I happen to respect dogs and "I live to please you, master" attitude just makes me sick. I like to level with dogs, help them stand tall, make their own decisions and take responsibility for their actions. In a nutshell I like team play.
Withholding the reward is not in my toolkit either. I don't make a big deal about work vs. reward. When teaching the dog a new skill (or finetuning an existing one) I like to use every kind of reward possible to help communicate what I want the dog to learn and to mark progress in the right direction. I incorporate rewards into training to make it tension free and lighthearted and to create a good environment. I reward dogs for effort way more then for anything else. In other words I reward team play.
I try to never put myself in the other side of the fence when it comes to my dogs. They are not my training subjects, they are my friends..
Wow, that was a bit esoteric, ;-).. gee..
Olga.
Re: Startline Routine
It may be a little esoteric, but it helps me understand the framework you are trying to construct. In agility I have usually thought of training in terms of... I havent taught the dog 'x' as if I had an experimental subject needing 100 exposures with a reward ratio of 'y'. I havent really considered it as a 'we' havent done 'x' together. Currently Wisp is in a basic obedience class. I enrolled her in the basic class so that she could practice behavors she knows in a very hectic environment. There is always a period of 'down' time in such a class and we have been just spending time together, or playing silly games. There is far more 'we' about this training. Somehow when I have added an obstacle of some kind, my focus on the dog has lessened whereas I think it actually should have increased.... hmmm
I hope the cold weather eases up here so that I can try out some of these ideas on ground that is not forzen!!
elizabeth
Re: Startline Routine
Elizabeth,
Your post made me very happy. The concept of team play is the most important and is the pillar of all my teaching. It doesn't stop to amaze me that team play is so elusive to so many Agility folks.. as all Agility is, is team play.
For me and my doggies it's second nature. We live our lives as a team. Agility is just a small part of it.
Here is another concept to consider conveying to your dog:
LOVE WHAT YOU DO AND YOU'LL DO WHAT YOU LOVE
P.S.: Please don't wait for fare weather, videotape team play sessions in the house and post in the Coaching Forum.
Olga.
Re: Startline Routine
Interesting ... I never really thought of my dog wanting to please me as subservience. My older dog did agility solely to please me. I think it was the time spent with me on course, working as a team that motivated him. I'm not sure how I see that pleasing and teamwork are so different - if there is no desire to work together (please), there is no team. I'm not one that believes in an Alpha relationship either.   I've seen too many people who have B.C.'s constantly blame the dog, never marking desirable behaviour and although the dog is usually still working, it makes me cringe when the dogs ears are pinned back and the dog's tail is between it's legs when there is a mistake on course. Â
I just feel lucky to have my dogs today as a good friends dog was attacked yesterday and may lose its hind leg. Give your dogs a hug! We're so lucky to have them.
Wendy
Re: Startline Routine
Re: Startline Routine
Wendy,
It's only semantics, ;-).. We must be attributing slightly different meaning to the same words.. For me there is a difference between "pleasing" and "team effort", the first being a one way street and the second a two way highway, ;-)..
There are a lot of dogs who start out in Agility just because Mom is asking them to do it.. but then they grow to like it and so do it for themselves as well as for Mom, ;-)..
Olga.
Re: Startline Routine
I am not sure what pushy means.
I have a routine,not written in stone. I walk them up to the line, put in a sit,remove leash/collar and give a little scratch on their chest and say good boy. I stand up and take deep breaths as I walk to my start position. I turn to my dog,smile and say OK.
Cheers,
Jean
Re: Startline Routine
Good for you, Jean!
"Pushy" means the dog wants to get on with the run and doesn't want to wait for the handler to get ready.
In the beginning this behavior may or may not be indicative of the dog breaking his start, or knocking the first bar, but these two things are a natural progression. The handler becomes rushed and releases the dog before he (he handler) is ready.. the dog puts two and two together and pushes the handler more and more, the handler panics and releases the dog early.. next thing you know, the dog releases himself..
Got the picture?Â
Olga.
Re: Startline Routine
Phoenix has only broken her startline stay once in competition (our first USDAA trial!).  Actually she breaks more in practice, I think because my attention is not on her and I"m not 100% focused on her!
Xena's startline is really not very reliable but we've struggled so much with motivation that I'm really not keen to focus it on it too much, I'm just thrilled that she's so willing to play now and I can usually outrun her anyway - heck she just turned 7 and sometimes you need to pick your battles.
Anyway, my problem with Phoenix is her moving - not getting up out of her sit but scooting sideways so she can see me around the jump wing. I'm trying to decide whether to fix it or not. It's mainly a problem on courses where you are forced to set your dog close to the first jump. She has NEVER missed the first obstacle, no matter how much she scoots to the side. Sometimes the angle she leaves herself isn't great but she rarely knocks the first bar.
Not sure if I should be happy like you said that she is 110% focused on me or whether this may deteriorate further and become a problem.
Wendy
Re: Startline Routine
Hi Wendy,
Not sure what to tell you. I'd like to see her do it..
If you decide you want to work on it, work on lateral start instead of brining Phoenix's attention to a "problem" at the start line. She may have just developed a habit of moving to see you, or maybe she really feels she needs to see you.. Lateral start exercises would show you what's going on with that..
Olga.Â
Re: Startline Routine
Re: Startline Routine
Hi Tracy,
Week 11 is nothing, ;-).. Here is to many more to come!
No, seriously, good job on your work to establish a connection with your youngster.
Believe me, when the dog is actually watching you and participating, it's not very hard to notice. You feel the connection. If in doubt, chances are "Elvis has left the building"..
Olga.Â