lead hand / recall hand
I have really been conflicted about developing a clear set of signals to help communicate impending changes in path. I started with a greg derret handling foundation because he was able to take Shadow and immediately she understood what he wanted so I decided to learn and apply that approach. There are lots of things to like about it but I do not think that my dogs or other dogs that I have seen trained with that methodology are more adept at reading 'path' in fact I am not sure that information concerning 'path' is clearly indicated.
I recently recieved the 2 DVD's on basic and advanced handling with Jenny Damm. I have gone over them a couple of times and the more I see, the more I think that she has some excellent strategies for indicating impending direction changes. When I look at the lovely article in clean run showing the effect of clear information on the jumping arc of a dog - it seems obvious that I have to indicate directional change sooner than I am or sooner than I can using the criteria of greg derret namely committment or when the dog can no longer fault the obstacle. The lead hand / recall hand is very good at maintaining a path but transitions are not really clear to me 'yet'. I really am leaning towards incorporating things like the distinctions between sharp and gradual rear crosses and the balence between the lead and recall hands as shaping the dogs path. I think this style of handling is much closer to what Olga herself uses with perhaps a little more running backwards! Wisp has given me a different perspective on these questions as she can change speed so quickly when she understands the task. There are moments when I am simply awestruck by her grasp of what I am stumbling to convey. It makes me realize how difficult it will be to look 'effortless'!! I think Wispy is an excellent teacher .. hopefully I will be as good a student..............
Re: lead hand / recall hand
I'm struggling with the same thing. I started with the GD system but Phoenix just wasn't getting the information soon enough. I find myself still using an RFP on serps as I guess I haven't taught the shoulder pull as fully. I was considering the Jenny Damm series and I'm glad that you think it is worthwhile. I think I'll go ahead and order and we can compare notes!
 W
Re: lead hand / recall hand
Go review/rewatch Lesson 9 hands demo again. The hands, along with directionals, work well, but, just like any other handling system, it takes time and effort to learn to place the cues at the best time. At Eric's video service site you can watch videos of Olga running. Here is Luz's page http://tinyurl.com/35pjzo I find watching videos of Olga in the ring very helpful.
I like Olga's system because all I have to think about is my hands (and, of course, timing) and not my feet, my shoulders, etc. Once the dog has learned that the hands contain the information, they only look for the hands to get the information they need. Properly placed verbal directionals then add to the efficiency. I can tell my younger dog, Treena, jump left and she knows she must jump and then turn left.
If you use shoulders, feet, hips as a handling system, with or without the hands, the dog must chose which one to pay attention to, and you must get them all correct. Some people criticize me when my dog has trouble on course, blaming it on using my hands. Well, if I messed up on course, it was because I didn't do it correctly. But when I have a great run, they don't seem to notice my hands and the success it brought me!Â
I wish the first video on hands that Olga has put up on Agility Vision was still available. It is a great lecture/demo on introducing the hands to the dog, why she uses the hands and the purpose of each hand. I wish that video and the one from lesson 9 were available all the time to everyone, whether or not you buy lesson 9, as I think everyone needs to see those two videos when they first join TNT and for review at any time as this is the handling system we are learning.
layers of information
It is interesting your comment on the hands. With my terriers, they seem far more in tune with my legs / feet or where I am actually 'driving' than my hands. I do like the recall / lead hand concept, but I want to develop a dialogue and convey as much information as possible. On the video's of Olga's runs that I have seen on AV, I see hands, motion, changes of speed, voice all working in concert (most of the time
) to show the way. A number of years ago I worked with a very good handler who had me simply drag a leash on the ground and move in such a way as to make the leash go where I wanted it to go. Doing this exercise felt like I was providing a whole array of handling cues for my dog and that helped them learn easily.
I think my dogs convey quite clearly what types of cues they respond best to or make the most sense for them. I still think my job as a handler is to figure out what is clearest for them then make that my default. Wisp's speed has made it clear to me that the solutions that are effective for Shadow and Pippen are not necessarily the right solutions for her.
I also want to get away from the fill in the blank ...... handling system and to explore a variety of options to develpe a functional toolbox that works for me!! this is one of the best things about this virtual school - namely that we can explore a variety of solutions to find the best one for our team. That only happens when you are lucky enough to be able to work with someone who is as good at reading dogs as Olga!............elizabeth
Re: layers of information
As you said, hands aren't the only thing conveying information during a run. Motion, speed and voice are so important.
I have shelties, one of them being rather small - 13-1/2 inches. What I discovered is I have to have my hands lower because they are small ( duh
- I'm a bit slow in the brains department
). I use my hands about waist high. Once I realized my sheltie wasn't seeing what a larger border collie (another duh for me) sees and lowered the level of my hands, I started having success with my older sheltie.
That exercise with the leash is great. It is like using a paint brush. I think of my hands as a paint brush as, watching Olga, it looked to me like she was "painting" the path.
I learn a lot watching all handlers and how they communicate, successfully or unsuccessfully. Gives me more insight and ideas about how to run a course. I also have learned a lot from overhearing what other people are discussing while walking course.
Chris
Re: layers of information
Systems.. hate the notion..
Recently I have come across a statement on some e-mail group list or other that there are 3 Handling Systems in the whole Wide World of Agility: The Greg Derrett system, the Linda Macklenburg system and the Jenny Damm system.. of all people.
Hmm.. Guess the rest of us should either pledge an allegiance to one of the Three Mighty Systems.. or suffer from an inferiority complex on and off the course for all eternity.. NOT!
Let me tell you guys one more time: I do not have a system. I hate the whole notion of a system. A system implies a rigid set of rules, rights and wrongs.. and if you happen to go against the system.. the system police is going to come after you and take you to the system hell to rot, ;-)..
In my opinion, having a system, whether of your own creation or by adopting one of the Mighty Three, lol, equals voluntarily taking away your own freedom of expression and communication with your dog. Anything that can be called a system is bound to eventually become outdated and restrictive.. Look what happened to the Communist System, ggg.. (It's a joke, guys, please don't get all worked up).
No, I am not agitating for Anarchy as a preferred style of running Agility, ;-).. If you ask me, I like to describe Agility handling as a Language, a mean of communication between the team mates on the course. A Language is an OPEN END PLATFORM, as opposed to a System being a STAND ALONE COMPLEX. People use spoken language as our primary mean of communication. Say, we speak English. Have been speaking English for centuries. It evolves with the times and it changes, but it doesn't become outdated..
A language we develop to communicate with our canine partners is a combination of motion signals, body positions, hand gestures, verbal cues and intuition. The better both you and your dog speak that language, the better you'll do on the course.. and off the course actually, ;-)..
So, if you and you dog learn a set of communication signals that, say, GD teaches, you just enriched your Human-to-Doggie language and thus enriched your relationship with your dog.
I like to have a well developed two-way communication going between me and my dogs ever before I use this language to communicate any tasks, such as Agility maneuvers. The main prerogative of communication is mutual attention and mutual desire to understand what the other one is trying to say (do). Once this is accomplished, I can teach my dogs endless notions, and incorporate any innovations that spring up in our young and rapidly evolving sport of Agility.
On a rare occasion when I can manage to break away from teaching, I love attending seminars. Doesn't happen often, but it's a treat for me and my dogs, ;-).. I make a point to see GD every 3 or so years.. and, you know, Luz's favorite destination is Ohio, lol,, and that's where Linda M. lives..
So, before heading to Italy last July, I took Yang Yang to Nancy Gyes' to attend a 2 day Gregg Derrett seminar and have a chance to see some European style equipment that PowerPaws owns. Actually Sue Humphrey and Gwen went with us too.. We had a great time at Greg's seminar and did exactly as Greg ordered. You know, when in Rome, act like Romans, right? Neither Yankee nor Gwen had any problems functioning under Greg's system..
Then on the way to the European Open I stopped in Germany and attended a session at the Agility Camp Wolf, taught by my Swiss friends Alex Roth and Rugula Tschanz-Haas. The way they run and teach is pretty much what you see Jenny Damm do.. In fact the vast majority of European handlers run that way, and I doubt they all learnt it from Jenny, ;-).. But I regress.. Yang Yang and I had a great time at Camp Wolf, running backwards, doing blind crosses, and shouting commands in German.. hell, why not, ;-)!
But when we went into the ring at the EO, we ran like we always run - firmly connected by the Yang-Olga line of communication: hands, tails and all.. Go, Roo-Roo! (that's in YangYang-lish, btw)..
Well, there you have it..
Olga.
Re: Systems.. hate the notion..
When we all first started agility it was important to have some sort of "system" to learn consistency. The dogs learn when she does this, I do that. Just as when you learned to cook you probably followed a recipe but if you enjoyed cooking and it became something more then what you did because you had to eat then the recipe becomes a spring board for your creativity.  Once you learn the basics, real growth ( and fun) comes with developing your own style.
Kody and Bailey are very different. When Bailey was ready to trial, I came up with the bright idea of bringing my individualized  handing style closer together to make it easier for me. Kody rebelled and Bailey slowed down. So it was back to the drawing board. But isn't that what makes it fun and challenging?
Greg says "always face the direction your dog is going and cue with the hand closest to the dog"  . Very good advice until you get to a level where you need more tools in your bag..Â
Somewhere along the line I have become convinced that if I trained my dog to do the weaves by standing on my head every time, they would weave when I did a hand stand.
Just some random thoughts, I would rather go out and try it then analyze and talk about it. Hence TNT. Thats just me.
Cheers,
Jean
And NO, there is not going to be a video of me standing on my head.
Well, maybe if we make the finals at Nationals. (VBFG)
Re: was Systems.. now Jean standing on her head, ;-)
Oh, no, Jean! You are not getting off this easy, ;-).. Standing on your head with Bailey weaving.. now that would be a video hard to beat! Guess I will have to help you get into the Finals, ah?
Olga.
Re: Systems.. hate the notion..
lesson 17 tunnel exit in practice
Had Pippen at a lovely small USDAA trial this past weekend. Weather was cool we ran on a college athletic field and had mountains for a backdrop. Unfortunatly the trial was so small that we only had about 15 masters dogs total so was not possible to get video ( everyone entered was working their tails off when not running their own dog!) - However.... judge cherrie wittenberg presented us with a jumpers course where the blast straight out of the tunnel would have been to an off course jump but where I could get right in front of the tunnel mouth to pick Pippen up and set a good tight turn to the next jump / line. Well I did..... Pippen turned beautifully and won the class handily. I saw the vast majority of teams taking a very wide turn there and fighting the line and dropping bars from that point on.  Another benefit was that we were 'clicking together' - I absolutely didn't feel rushed nor did I get that hurry and wait feeling. I think sometimes getting ahead of your dog is NOT an advantage!! In fact you can build more energy together.
Problem I had this weekend was Miss Wisp barking when I had Pippen out to run. I tried to just walk and play with her at the distace from the rings while other dogs ran without her losing her mind. I am actually surprised. I used to be able to take her to trials and she was very relaxed only getting excited when she saw her doggie friends run or if I ran a dog ... now she vibrates and boings!..... I clearly have a lot of work to do there!!!! ................elizabeth
Re: lesson 17 tunnel exit in practice
Yeah, Elizabeth!
I just love to hear that you put the Lesson 17 tunnel exit skill to a good use in your Jumpers run! Well done.
It is a sweet feeling when you start really getting in sync with your dog.. I absolutely agree with you about getting ahead of the dog NOT being an advantage, it breaks the communication and teamwork. ..Not to be confused with handling from the front, ;-).. A lot of mini dog handlers run away from their dogs, ;-(..
Wisp barking.. Don't kill yourself fighting her barking when you run Pippen.. crate further away and otherwise who cares if she barks for a minute.. She'll get better with time.. I don't advise "desensitizing" an eager dog to the activity you want her to be "crazy" about, ;-)..
Olga.